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Gerald Finley and Julius Drake
Interviewed by Sean Rafferty for BBC Radio 3 “In Tune”
5 November 2007
SR: Well we’ve two stellar musicians about to perform for us next. Erm one of my first guests was going to be a vet. Fortunately dissecting dried mice lost its appeal. He loved choral singing, first in Ottawa then at Kings College Cambridge in a back row that also included Mark Padmore and Christopher Purves. From that er he took flight onto the operatic stage and concert platform where his baritone voice is simply one of the most supreme around. Gerald Finley is here to salute Samuel Barber, with him one of the great pianists, Julius Drake, and they begin with… well, what must be one of Barber’s most sublime sounds.
click song title to hear extract [from Songs of Samuel Barber]
Well, if Samuel Barber never wrote anything else I think that would erm that would do. ‘Sure on this Shining Night’ sung live for us by Gerald Finley with Julius Drake at the piano.
Lovely to have you back Gerry.
GF: Thanks very much, lovely to be here.
SR: That voice is so wonderfully anchored now – erm I don’t mean that you were ever free-floating [GF laughs] and in danger of casting yourself adrift but I just wonder if all those early days helped, the old choral training over all those years, I don’t know, gives you a basis to proceed and fly?
GF: Yeah, it certainly gives a very strong musical er anchor and, you know, appreciation for... for rhythm, text and great music really, and erm... I think of course since those days... you know, vocally you mature and gain a bit of insight into how the singing voice actually works when you’re performing as a soloist, and erm... but of course I long for those camaraderie occasions again with a bunch of other, you know, wonderful singing musicians. Erm… but you know, opera and concerts these days are a nice place to be as well.
SR: Well indeed. I’m trying to think, last time possibly er in the City of London was it Pelleas et Melisande with Simon Keenlyside and Kirschlager [GF: absolutely yeah] which was sensational, absolutely sensational. How do you begin to develop a role like that, I mean that’s…, it's a nasty… it’s quite a nasty figure you played.
GF: Yeah Golaud. Golaud is the… half brother of Pelleas… has an awful task to sort out in his own psychology erm... his whole life journey is, is erm... under siege, he’s lost his wife, er he’s obviously a wanderer... I mean it’s very much like mid-life crisis I suppose [laughs]. Erm but Metterlich and Debussy managed to... get a really tough edge to him, and a very bitter and aggressive way which is in the end the tragedy of the... for me as a character anyway.
SR: Is it very different than recreating the world as a microcosm in a recital when your static but you’ve really got to, you’ve got to suddenly bring the drama and the music to life.
GF: Yeah, I like to consider, er, song recitals as, if you like, a whole series of connected operatic scenes um in, as you say in microcosm. Each story, if you like, each song has a relevant side [?] - or a group of songs are an adventure that the poet or the characters are experiencing... erm, and I think that the dramatic training that one has on the operatic stage is very useful in the recital situation, and by the same token the experience in the recital hall where you’re having to refine, actually, emotions, so that they’re not overblown in a small space, that can be very useful on the stage too by not overplaying.
SR: That’s interesting, you were talking recently to someone I think in an interview about for instance the Count in The Marriage of Figaro, where you go from this supremely arrogant, confident figure to the end of the opera where you’re reduced to being - to grovelling really – to the Countess [GF: Absolutely] in front of everybody you wouldn’t be seen dead kicking before.
GF: Well I think that the Count in the Marriage of Figaro [SR: It’s a journey] is a real, um, is a real journey on stage, because as you say it’s… you’re crumbling literally, thinking at the beginning that you’re completely in control and it’s your opera [laughs] er, and at the end you give the opera away, pretty much. On your knees… but it's [SR: It’s good for you] ...It’s good for you. But I like the comedic potential of that sort of… tragedy, in some ways.
SR: Is it true you really were going to be a vet?
GF: Yeah. My whole sort of high school and secondary school training in Canada was geared to science and I worked on local farms during the summer trying to get to know domesticated animals, and in the end it was…
SR: So the biopsy [sic] of your life is gonna be like Oklahoma!?
GF: [Laughing] Well, it’s a bright sunny day – definitely!
Erm... but to be honest, er the thing that shocked me more than anything about becoming a vet in those circumstances was actually dealing with the humans erm and that was the thing that put me off [laughs]. [SR: That’s one to discuss… ‘til the cows come home] ...well absolutely. So it’s much safer on an operatic stage. You have a great pit before they…
SR: …You thought it was going to be safer but probably shark infested at times as well. And there we are.
And your voice broke at 16, that’s another extraordinary thing. [Yeah, yeah, it's a...] It’s hardly conceivable these days is it that somebody would actually last that long.
GF: No well it is something that is still genetically possible I, I suppose um, I mean in any, any secondary school up and down the land if there’s any boy still with a high-pitched voice at the age of 15 they don’t want to be seen dead in a soprano section of the school choir of course, and that was a real, for me that was character building [laughter] ‘cause I loved the singing so much that erm, you know it was either football practice or ice hockey practice or choir practice, and in the end I decided the choral route was somehow going to be the one for me.
SR: Thank goodness the voice broke [laughs] and it stayed down there very nicely and developed a golden sheen. Wonderful of you to have you singing for us tonight with Julius, we’ll be meeting you again in a moment but I think a Charles Ives song you’re going to do next.
GF: That’s right, a song that comes from our, erm the first of I’m pleased to say, two Charles Ives albums, because there’s a second one in the pipeline, erm going to press as we… as far as I know… as we speak. Erm, and this comes from that first album and it’s called Memories a and b.
SR: Thank you.
click song title to hear extract [ from Ives: A song for anything]
SR: Hmmm. Memories, two different varieties you have to say a and b as you so romantically call them by Charles Ives, sung by Gerald Finley with Julius Drake at the piano. Erm, you could give me that part Julius, you shouting ‘Curtain!’ at the end which you had to do from the keyboard, I’m very prepared for the walk-on part [laughter]
JD: I’ve made my debut in auspicious halls all over the – my voice debut I should say – in auspicious halls [GF: and whistling] all over the world with that song. [SR: And multi-whistling…] And my whistling debut, yes absolutely [laughter]
SR: Very impressive. They’re delicious those songs aren’t they, I mean Charles Ives was sort of erm... larger than life, mad [GF: Genius] huge symphonies, genius yes but just delightfully unexpected [JD: Yes absolutely]
GF: I think the variety is extraordinary, I mean he goes from the old home... hometown parlour song to very vigorous anti-war and political songs, and… but also has extraordinary adventures in harmony and rhythm and Julius has a tale or two about how challenging the piano parts are. And er, but also vocally it’s a, a vast treasury of all sorts of adventures.
JD: And what’s interesting is that Barber, Samuel Barber, who I think is the other great American song-writer of the 20th century, apparently couldn’t bear Charles Ives, he couldn’t bear a note he wrote. And er it’s wonderful to have the two of them there as these two great standard-bearers for song in America. But so different. And it’s been very interesting recording the two albums of Ives and Barber, just to… to feel and see the differences, and yet Barber’s songs seem to work in a wonderful way too.
SR: He’s got a great feeling for the words hasn’t he really, he was very careful about selecting what he set. Quite an eclectic…
JD: Absolutely. And I think he was a bit of a melodic genius, he’s got a wonderful, as I think you heard in the first song we did, that erm somehow he captures a melody that you somehow then remember, it’s a sort of wonderful gift.
SR: And interesting talking about Barber the great song-writer, if you mention Samuel Barber to most people, you think orchestral somehow, maybe it's because of the Adagio for strings from the String Quartet [GF: Yeah. Sure] that achieved iconic status [JD: Completely]. That’s what people think first of all don’t they.
GF: Well it is, and it’s ironic really that... I mean he struggled at the beginning of his career to, as a singer, because… [SR: As a baritone…] Indeed. As a baritone… [SR: A rather good baritone] …and, and presented his Dover Beach accompanying himself at the piano erm to various publishers and... in fact performed Dover Beach a number of times himself, so erm…
SR: Well there he was a fine baritone, he also had a very musical aunt who was very helpful in getting him into his career – rather similar to yourself?
GF: Well [laughs]… ah well I think if there are any opportunities available for introductions by any member of any family then you have to cease them... [laughter]
SR: Quite right. You did sort of have a well-placed aunt in London didn’t you, to help you get into the musical life here.
GF: Yes, she fortunately married the then organist and Director of Music at Westminster Abbey, Sir William McKay, and erm it was really his influence upon me when he retired to Ottawa in Canada that encouraged me to come over to the Royal College of Music.
SR: Well I’m delighted. What er, I wonder what you’d be doing if you hadn’t done that? You’d have burst into glorious voice somewhere wouldn’t you? [GF: I suppose so…] Julius would have found you probably at a small festival
GF: …I think I would at least have been in some form of music, and the opportunities that were given to me here in London with generous support all the way along from Friends of Covent Garden and Countess of Munster Musical Trust and these sort of wonderful sponsors…
SR: They’re very, very essential sort of springboards and actually helpful underlays aren’t they
JD: Absolutely, I mean they’re vital in recognising talent early on and nurturing it and hopefully getting the sort of results you get… now with Mr Finley for instance. I mean you just hope that that is what might happen, and er I think it’s very important and they do invaluable service in supporting and... and nurturing.
SR: Well, you’ve recorded Ives and more n the way, you’ve recorded Copeland [sic] – I think you should be recording absolutely everything at the moment. Could you not please, please both of you go into a recording studio for about [laughter]three months and record whatever you want
JD: You say that, but Hyperion have very generously more or less said we can record what we want…
SR: Good… I hope you’re doing it
JD …so we’re making our way through the entire song repertoire [laughter]. Not quite.
GF: Of course we don’t want to flood the market, but er, and of course there are so many wonderful people doing wonderful things in the recording industry... what’s been lovely about these Barber and Ives projects has been my affinity if you like, with the, you know, the geography of the composers, and really having that north American association.
SR: It was lovely I think, someone said, a critic said of the Ives here we are the quintessential American sound and it’s taken a Canadian and a Brit to get to the core of it [laughter]
GF: That’s nice. It’s always been… good music is there to be had by everyone and erm, I hope I’m at least, you know, expressing my enjoyment of the music and the language of course.
JD: In the case of Ives and Barber they are very under-recorded really, and under-represented in the catalogue, so it’s very nice to be able to…
SR: We’re not going to hear them tonight live and kicking but you’ve got those wonderful Hermit Songs too on the Copeland CD haven’t you?
JD: They’re on the Barber CD yeah
SR: the Barber CD yeah. Did I say Copeland?
JD: … ...Yes… but...
SR: It’s very gracious of you to not correct me and say ‘don’t talk such rubbish’ [laughter]
JD: …he wasn’t bad either…
GF: …perhaps he’s next…
JD: You’ve sown the seed…
SR: I have, I’ve just had this… somehow I’m prescient, I just have this little feeling that you might be doing that.
You’ve got a big... a rather a sort of rare requiem coming up haven’t you?
GF: I do, the erm, the World requiem by John Foulds is being presented at the Albert Hall this Sunday... with the BBC Symphony and Chorus, and er, yeah I believe it’s a, one of the first modern-day performances in some time.
SR: I think it was done in the 1920s [GF: That’s right, yeah] …it just simply wasn’t done again
GF: No, the forces are huge... the score suggests 100 sopranos, 100 altos, 80 basses, 80 tenors, 14 first violins…
JD: But they could only afford Gerald Finley [laughter]
SR: He’ll do for about 10 of them I think
GF: But one of the greatest lines is er, I get to sing something called the Audite, and it says ‘listen all you people, you Canadians, you Californians…’ you know ‘…live in peace’ and it's like Wow! These are strong words… [laughter] [SR: They are…] …and er, but very dramatically set, so erm…
SR: O God how controversial.
Well that’s Sunday, and I hope more opera coming, and er…
GF: Definitely. I have a wonderful opportunity in the er in the New Year with my first Russian Eugene Onegin at Covent Garden, so I’m very much looking forward to that.
SR: Fantastic, yes well so are we. Thank you for being with us, and you’re finishing with a pair, and we’ve twisted your arm to do a little extra song for us. ‘There’s nae lark’ which is Swinbourne isn’t it, and then there’s a James Joyce – he was very keen, Barber, on the Celtic diaspora and there are a lot of Irish settings…
JD: There are, and as you said earlier he was very particular about the poems he set, but actually both these two songs we’re going to do are not in the main published Barber book... er which for many years has been where everybody has found Barber songs, but they’re in a more recently published book of early... erm songs that he wrote when still in his early 20s and earlier than that.
SR: One of them when he was only 17
JD: That’s right, and they er, again this melodic gift which is there just sings through.
SR: Thank you very much indeed. So ‘There’s nae lark’ a setting of Swinbourne, and ‘In the dark pinewood’ a setting of James Joyce, music by Samuel Barber, sung by Gerald Finley with Julius Drake at the piano.
click song title to hear extract [from Songs of Samuel Barber]
Thank you very much indeed Gerald Finley and Julius Drake ‘In the dark pinewood] by James Joyce a setting by Samuel Barber to celebrate their disc of barber, go out and snatch it, it’s oou on Hyperion this very moment and some of the songs accompanied by the Aronowitz ensemble as well, who of course are no strangers to the studio. And Gerry sings in the Foulds requiem at the Royal Albert Hall, the BBC Symphony Orchestra, Remembrance Sunday in London. Thank you for making music for us tonight – total pleasure.